ALAN KAZLEV

From: Joe (Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:50:59 -0800)
Subject: Alan, did you say this?
To: Alan Kazlev

Alan, Sanjay posted this on the SSB2 Yahoo Group:

“Not to mention that a former supporter of his who is now against him told me in private email that he thinks Moreno is a ’slimy character’?“

Of course, there is no one else who formerly supported me and then went against me except you. I just wanted to verify that you said this. Just seemed strange that you would publicly talk about “Love“ and “Letting go of hatred“ and then talk dirt behind my back, in private emails.

If you choose not to respond, I will update my page about you and say you chose not to respond. If you did not say this quote, then I think a simple “no“ would suffice.

Sincerely,

Joe

RESPONSE FROM ALAN KAZLEV

From: Alan Kazlev (Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:57:23 +1100)
Subject: Re: Alan, did you say this?
To: Joe

Joe, I really don’t remember everything i wrote, as i write so many emails.

I checked all my sent mail, and in none of the emails on my computer to Sanjay did i use the particular phrase mentioned.

I do remember being (and still am) pretty disgusted by your ad hominem attacks against ex-devotees who i have come to know via email correspondence. These people have been through enough emotional crisis as it is, without your adding to it. Instead of starting from the position “hmm, maybe they are right and maybe they are wrong, i will examine this with an open heart and open mind” you seem to begin only with the attitude “they are accusing SSB, so I will show them up for the porn purveyors, liars, and fundamentalists that they are“ and then proceed occasionally (minutely analysing emails and yahoo posts) to build a case from there.

Have you ever once tried to feel genuine heart-felt understanding, or attempt honest and open-minded (not “you are lying and i will prove it” but true open-minded, sincere, and compassionate) dialogue towards any of these ex-devotees? I cannot say you do or don’t do so in private, but what i find on your website are coldly unforgiving and judgmental accusations. However if I am wrong in this could you please point to me to a page on your site where you show a genuinely open-minded and non-hostile attitude to the statements of ex-devotees and i will give you my sincere apology.

If the tone of this email differs from previous ones to you it is because i have since come to know several ex-devotees better, and hence heard their side of the story. Although even before then, for me, the turning point came when you refused to take down your pages attacking Reinier, even after he had taken down his pages against you. Had you done so, I’d have thought, “hey, Joe’s alright, he’s able to forgive and forget!”

As for the rest, I am not a “former supporter” of you, as i was always non-aligned, and examined the matter with an open-mind, including looking as honestly and sincerely as i could at both sides of the argument. I admit, it is true, i did not (and still do not) have time to read every single page written by both sides, but even what i read felt like descending into a cesspit, and was enough to put me off this whole subject.

The matter of Sai Baba, the miracles, and the accusations against him are too complex to be discussed in this email, but hopefully I will have more to say regarding this on my website.

RESPONSE TO ALAN KAZLEV

From: Joe (Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:18:32 -0800)
Subject: Re: Alan, did you say this?
To: Alan Kazlev

Alan, I can’t help to wonder why you are not saying one word about the “ad hominem” attacks from Anti-Sai Activists? Why? Again, you have no clue as to their depth and breadth of “ad hominem” attacks against various Sai Devotees, Sathya Sai Baba, Proponents and me. It continues to this day in full force.

Now you might excuse the disgusting online behavior of Sanjay Dadlani. You can excuse his requests for Jesus pornography, his ceaseless lies, ad hominem attacks and racist, misogynistic, deviant, boot fetish and sleazy posts on his private blog. That is your choice. However this information shows what kind of person is attacking Sathya Sai Baba and trying to take a moral and ethical stance against him. I am simply surprised you are not “disgusted” by Sanjay’s online behavior! Speaks volumes about you and the bias I have accused you of.

Again, the public that has been fed Reinier’s propaganada for years is perfectly entitled to see what kind of person he is. I have voluminous amounts of old files from Reinier’s very first attacks against me. What I have mentioned about Reinier, on my site, is only the tip of the iceberg.

I am not going to send you any more links making my case. It is clear to me the position you are taking. Mysteriously enough, you seem to care more about the content on my site than the content on Anti-Sai Sites.

Since Sanjay indirectly attributed that quote to you, and you admit that you have been emailing Sanjay, I will have to make a note about it on my page about you. So if you did not use that “particular phrase”, which “particular phrase” did you use?

Joe

RESPONSE FROM ALAN KAZLEV

From: Alan Kazlev (Fri, 06 Jan 2006 08:44:00 +1100)
Subject: Re: Alan, did you say this?
To: Joe

Alan, I can’t help to wonder why you are not saying one word about the “ad hominem” attacks from Anti-Sai Activists? Why? Again, you have no clue as to their depth and breadth of “ad hominem” attacks against various Sai Devotees, Sathya Sai Baba, Proponents and me. It continues to this day in full force.

True i have only read your website (which attacks and slanders ex-devotees), the sites of ex-devotees (which detail claims of sexual abuse), communicated with yourself, Lisa (for a short while), and a number of ex-devotees (and also reading their accounts), and seen the whole ugly obnoxiousness of pages upon pages of ranting spilled over onto Wikipedia

So if that gives me no clue, well, i can only study what i have studied.

but ok Joe, here’s a question I have been meaning to ask you

You say you are not a SSB devotee

Fair enough.

But if that is so, why then have you dedicated your life to this?

I mean, i can understand Lisa, she’s a devotee, people are slanging off her guru, she stands by her guru (even if in a very flameful & aggressive way).

But what is SSB to you? Some Indian guy who claims he is God, and has had a lot of allegations of sexual abuse brought against him. How does he differ from all the other gurus - Da Free John, Rajneesh, Mataji, even Muktananda (who i always felt to be a very decent guy), they all have claims against them? Why don’t you concern yourselves with these others as well? Why don’t you look at the allegations (some reasonable, some very poorly researched and ad hominem) made by Geoff Falk in his online book Stripping the Gurus? You could go through every chapter, and, if you are a disciple of one or another, be offended (as many have been). Why do you only limit yourself to SSB, if you are not a devotee, and if making claims of sexual and emotional abuse against guru figures offends and enrages you?

Now you might excuse the disgusting online behavior of Sanjay Dadlani. You can excuse his requests for Jesus pornography,

So what? What’s the big deal? It’s no different to nurses uniforms

Or are you a Christian? Why does this offend you?

his ceaseless lies, ad hominem attacks and racist, misogynistic, deviant, boot fetish and sleazy posts on his private blog.

I have corresponded with him and my opinion of him is quite different

And what’s with this trip about sleaziness and fetishes? Are you some sort of moral guardian?

Since Sanjay indirectly attributed that quote to you, and you admit that you have been emailing Sanjay, I will have to make a note about it on my page about you. So if you did not use that “particular phrase”, which “particular phrase” did you use?

how about “obsessive nit-picking attitude”

Joe

alan

RESPONSE TO ALAN KAZLEV

From: Joe (Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:05:54 -0800)
Subject: Re: Alan, did you say this?
To: Alan Kazlev

Alan, why don’t you show me where I have “slandered” anyone? Are you, like Anti-Sai Activists under the false impression that a negative statement is “slander”? For any statement to be considered “slanderous” the statements have to be shown to be false. If statements are negative or unsavory, but true, it is not slander. So why don’t you back up your claim that I am “slandering” ex-devotees? Or are you still being spoon-fed lies from Barry & Co.?

Apparently, you still have not read my site. I was a devotee of SSB from the age of 18 to the age of 25. My experiences with SSB have been wholly positive. However, I parted ways with SSB due my own personal philosophical differences with his teachings (which I could not accept in regards to God Concepts, Karma, etc). I am very familiar with Sathya Sai Baba and many of the stories propagated against him. Why should I go around defending Da Free John, Rajaneesh, Mataji, etc., when I am not familiar with any of them and never visited or followed any of them? That is why I am limiting myself to SSB. I am entirely familiar with him and the lies being propagated against him. And I am not “devoting my life” to this issue. I have so far dedicated a little over a year to this issue. So kindly stop exaggerating the facts. You would have known these things had you cared to read my site. Apparently, you still don’t care.

Amazing how you are willing to pardon, dismiss and forgive Sanjay’s numerous lies, defamations, requests for Jesus Pornography and racist, deviant and sleazy posts on his online blog, and yet you are unforgiving and take issue with me simply because I did not delete my pages against Reinier! Tell me something is not wrong with this scenario?

And one other thing I was meaning to tell you. When you brought up the issue of sensitivity to these Anti-Sai Activists who were SO traumatized in their defection from SSB, you forget that Reinier was never a follower of SSB. Reinier never even saw SSB. So the issue of Reinier’s trauma was never a factor.

Also, if these Anti-Sais are so traumatized, why are they putting themselves in the lime-light, waging a very public, international smear campaign against SSB? When their lies and dishonesty are pointed out, they start talking about “confidentiality”, “privacy” and “sensitivities”. However, they have shown no such “confidentiality”, “privacy” and “sensitivity” towards SSB, the Sai Org, Devotees or Proponents. What about the extreme trauma of devotees who read the misleading, inaccurate and dishonest stories published on the internet by Anti-Sai Activists? I guess you don’t care about their trauma. I do.

And it is abundantly clear you still have not read Anti-Sai Sites. If you want to see “nipicking” in the extreme, there are plenty of instances of it! Oh, I forgot, you don’t have the “time, patience or inclination” to read them.

And thank you for acknowledging that you are talking behind my back. I can feel your “love” and your “letting go of the hatred”. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Sincerely,

Joe

RESPONSE FROM ALAN KAZLEV

From: Alan Kazlev (Fri, 06 Jan 2006 11:32:49 +1100)
Subject: Re: Alan, did you say this?
To: Joe

Alan, why don’t you show me where I have “slandered” anyone? Are you, like Anti-Sai Activists under the false impression that a negative statement is “slander”? For any statement to be considered “slanderous” the statements have to be shown to be false. If statements are negative or unsavory, but true, it is not slander. So why don’t you back up your claim that I am “slandering” ex-devotees? Or are you still being spoon-fed lies from Barry & Co.?

Apparently, you still have not read my site. I was a devotee of SSB from the age of 18 to the age of 25.

then why did you say to me and on your site and to me that you are not?

My experiences with SSB have been wholly positive.

so have mine

But unlike you, i am openminded enough to see that there are others whose experiences have not

For me, learning of these sexual allegations against SSB was a real disillusionment, the nearest i have ever been to “a crisis of faith”. Something only an open-minded person can have. And while i will not say “everything about SSB is wrong or fake” i will not blindly ignore those things that do indicate wrong doings either. Do you know what it’s like to appreciate both sides of an argument? From your angry one-sided reply here I very much doubt you do.

However, I parted ways with SSB due my own personal philosophical differences with his teachings (which I could not accept in regards to God Concepts Karma, etc).

ok, fair enough

i was under the assumption you had never been a devotee. My apologies

I am very familiar with Sathya Sai Baba and many of the stories propagated against him. Why should I go around defending Da Free John, Rajaneesh, Mataji, etc., when I am not familiar with any of them and never visited or followed any of them?

see above

That is why I am limiting myself to SSB. I am entirely familiar with him and the lies being propagated against him. And I am not “devoting my life” to this issue. I have so far dedicated a little over a year to this issue.

hmm, only a year? Ok, i take your word for it. While you are obsessional, i know you are not a liar.

So kindly stop exaggerating the facts.

how many hours a day then? How much free time do you sink in this? How much free time do you have left over a week? If the answer is “very little” then you are dedicating your life to this.

Look, i have no problem with that; but you shouldn’t say you aren’t when you are, if you do then you ARE lying And like i said, i will criticise you re your entrenched bias, but so far i have not seen you actually lying. Taking things out of context, obsessional bias, sure. But never knowing in your conscious mind something is the case then saying the opposite. On that ground at least i still do respect you.

And one other thing I was meaning to tell you. When you brought up the issue of sensitivity to these Anti-Sai Activists who were SO traumatized in their defection from SSB,

in SSB’s betrayal of their trust and faith, bringing about a crisis of faith. Have you any idea what a crisis of faith is? Because you can only understand it if you can go beyond your current black and white they and their side is bad i and my side are good way of thinking.

you forget that Reinier was never a follower of SSB. Reinier never even saw SSB. So the issue of Reinier’s trauma was never a factor.

point made. I agree there.

Also, if these Anti-Sais are so traumatized, why are they putting themselves in the lime-light, waging a very public, international smear campaign against SSB?

If someone had betrayed you and abused you sexually, or if you knew someone or many people who had been so betrayed, would you just stand idly by and do nothing?

When their lies and dishonesty

i have not found any such in my investigations. This is not to say that there arent bad apples among the SSB critics, i am sure there is, like that Hain guy. But he was never a devotee. I am talking about ex-devotees.

are pointed out, they start talking about “confidentiality”, “privacy” and “sensitivities”.

This has been explained on my page. Which i am sure you have read. But i will quote it again here for you anyway

----------------------

my own position on the affidavits (replying to Joe’s concerns here) is this: Assuming such affidavits do exist, then surely these are confidential court documents! If these charges of sexual abuse do one day come to court, it would surely be very prejudicial to any impartial trial have had these documents for many years splashed across the internet!

As for Joe’s request for names of victims, this (while understandable from his purely mental (obsessive) point of view) shows a lack of empathy. It is well known that many women who have suffered sexual assault report the experience of being cross-examined in court as “like being raped a second time.” Likewise if young and susceptible men really have suffered sexual abuse from Sai Baba (as these many ex-devotees assert), then for them to have slurs or innuendo put upon them on public websites, their credibility called into question, or questioned via antagonistic email (check Joe’s website for his style of email, although this is a lot milder than Lisa’s style) would be a very traumatic and demeaning experience for people already coping with much. I myself have seen a copy of an email which gives an example of this. One can understand why the more public ex-devotee activists wish to protect the privacy of those concerned.

-----------------------

However, they have shown no such “confidentiality”, “privacy” and “sensitivities” towards SSB, the Sai Org, Devotees or Proponents. What about the extreme trauma of devotees who read the misleading, inaccurate and dishonest stories published on the internet by Anti-Sai Activists? I guess you don’t care about their trauma. I do.

have you ever been sexually abused and betrayed by someone who was the very center of your life, who you even considered to be a divine incarnation?

And it is abundantly clear you still have not read Anti-Sai Sites. If you want to see “nipicking” in the extreme, there are plenty of instances of it! Oh, I forgot, you don’t have the time, patience or inclination to read them.

Yes, i have a life, and there are others things i want to do. Apologies if i cannot spend hundreds of hours going through every page. Those pages i have looked at have convinced me that SSB has made these sexual advances on some devotees.

And thank you for acknowledging that you are talking behind my back.

I don’t “talk about you behind your back”, I have more important things to do. The world doesnt revolve around you (or around me for that matter).

But what i have mentioned in my discussions with ex-devotees in my correspondence with them, is your public attacks against ex-devotees. This has nothing to do with your personal life, what you had for breakfast, or anything else to do with you the private person called Joe Moreno. So I don’t consider it “talking about you behind your back”. It is about your public persona, your actions in public on the internet. That’s all. If i am talking to an acquaintance, and in the course of that conversation criticise GWB for his Iraq policy, am i talking about Bush behind his back?

So drop your paranoia trip why don’t you.

And while I am not going to forward any private correspondence to you, as you don’t know the meaning of the word confidentiality, i will just say here, to you, that i am really put off by the way you obsessively search through all the yahoo posts and blog posts and websites, looking for any ammunition that can be used against your enemies, and the hatred you feel for them that is evident in your emails.

I can feel your “love”

You don’t know the first thing about spiritual love and compassion. All your years with Sai Baba, and with Christianity (assuming that’s what you believe now, hence your objection to Jesus Porn and your refusal to comment on my earlier query re this) have not taught you anything about spiritual love. Do you know what Christ taught? Or is all you know a gospel of hate? Because in all your emails i have never seen one shred of compassion or empathy for those whose experiences differ from your own. Not one.

and your “letting go of the hatred”. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Yes, you would do well to let go of hatred. You would feel like a great weight had been taken off your shoulders, if you could do that. But to let go of hatred requires spiritual receptivity. Yes, even just one atom of spiritual receptivity. I really tried to appeal to that better side of your nature Joe; i (in the past) genuinely believed you had such a better side to you. But i have yet to see any evidence that you do indeed have such a receptivity, so perhaps i was wrong.

I would very much like to see such a ray of receptivity in you, and if i ever do, i will immediately revise my opinion of you for the better. But all i ever seem to see from you is self-righteousness, and hate, and refusal to admit that maybe the other side does have a case too.

You sign your emails “sincerely”; but can you bring out that spiritual sincerity? Perhaps you think that if you ever admitted one bad thing about SSB, your whole world will fall to pieces. It’s not like that Joe; i went through that realisation, it doesnt mean that SSB doesnt have a positive side, it just means that there is more to him than either all good and all perfect avatar, or, conversely, all fake con artists and emotional and sexual abuser.

SSB is more complex then just one or the other, so are those other gurus i mentioned, and so is life itself.

You don’t have to stop loving Sai Baba, and i never said you did. I still have the highest feelings for the spiritual side of Sai Baba. But it is necessary for you to grow beyond the small-hearted and angry person that you currently are, if you can. The world is bigger than your private crusade against the SSB ex-devotees. But you will not be able to see that as long as you remain consumed by hate.

That’s all
alan

RESPONSE TO ALAN KAZLEV

From: Joe (Thu, 5 Jan 2006 18:02:02 -0800)
Subject: Re: Alan, did you say this?
To: Alan Kazlev

I divulged, on my email-page to Lisa Tice and on my main-article about Sanjay Dadlani, that I was a devotee but no longer consider myself one due to philosophical issues. I am not a devotee and have not been one for the past 10/11 years. Even my FAQ’s page was updated with the relevant information

If you go back to my very first article, about the Sai Controversy, you will see that it is dated October 2004. That is about 1 year and 2 months ago (although it feels much longer)!

Alan, when I undertook this task to expose what I saw as deceit and dishonesty against Sai Baba, I obviously made sacrifices. Before I engaged this controversy, I lived a very simple, quiet and peaceful life (I still do). I do not watch TV, listen to the radio or watch movies. My former life bounced between work to gardening, long night walks and watching sun-sets. That was it! I have always had lots of free time on my hands. Of course, I am now dedicating my free time to an issue that I feel is very important. I have had to sacrifice many gardening hours, long night-walks and beautiful sun-sets.

When I first started my site, it took anywhere between 4-10 hours a day. Now, however, it takes between 4-10 hours a week (sometimes more, sometimes less depending on articles put out by Anti-Sai Activists).

However I still find time to do many things that bring peace into my life. So to me, my sacrifices have been minimal. My biggest sacrifice has been my eyesight (watching computer screens takes its toll). My second biggest sacrifice is in association with my name. I knew I would be targeted, defamed and made fun of (I already saw it done to many, many others). Which is a prime reason why I think that no one undertook this challenge to begin with (just remember how fast you were targeted when you put a link to my site on yours).

Critics cannot be pleading “sensitivity”, “confidentiality” and “privacy” and, at the same time, be waging a public and unremitting smear campaign, exempting themselves from criticism. You must remember that I have known about these issues for 5 years (since late 1999). I remained entirely silent during this period. There comes a time when someone has to take a stand for what is true and point out the errors in the words of those who continually hurl themselves in the lime-light, making all sorts of unverifiable and unsubstantiated claims. There is also another side to this issue and that is the trauma that devotees must face when they read these allegations and no one gives both sides to the story! That is what I attempt to do. And my feedback has been incredibly positive.

Where have I requested the names to victims? I have made no such requests. I have requested the affidavits that Anti-Sai Activists said were published on the internet. Since they made that claim, I simply asked to see where they were located because they are not published on the internet (something Anti-Sai Activists have recently conceded to). So why are Anti-Sai Activists making all these claims about affidavits being on the internet, but then saying that I am requesting “confidential” information? One must also remember that Barry claimed there were “over a hundred affidavits” filed with the FBI in the USA. This is a bold-faced lie. There are no “over a hundred affidavits”. Ojvind Kyro (the Anti-Sai journalist) will only confirm he knows of and has 10 (ten). If there are so many affidavits, why hasn’t even one victim filed a court case in India against SSB? No one has even tried! Barry offered these victims free “world-class legal resources”. No even one (out of “over a hundred”) utilized these resources! Why not? Why haven’t the parents come out in full force? At some point, these questions have to be answered. Trying to silence the issue with “confidentiality” pleas is unconvincing. Even more so, 5 years after the fact.

If you want to talk “small hearted” and “angry”, you really need to open your eyes and visit Yahoo Groups against SSB. Let alone the hundreds of “small hearted” and “angry” posts made by Anti-Sai Activists on their own sites. Unfortunately, you have no clue about the “other side”. You are simply basing your conclusions on your private correspondences with Anti-Sai Activists. I suggest you read what they have said and then judge me as you will. But it does your integrity a great disservice when you judge me a priori.

So kindly lay off the judgments until you are fully informed, not as others choose to inform you. That is all I ask. Then maybe you will better understand where I am coming from.

Sincerely,

Joe

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