ALEXANDRA NAGEL - EMAILS: PAGE TWO

From: Alexandra Nagel (November 7th 2004)
Subject: Re: ExBaba.com: Deception
To: Visvarupa

Hi Joe,

I am unable to enter your website, but came to know there are inconsistencies on the web concerning my year as being a devotee of Sai Baba. That year was 1990. I had become sincerely interested in SB in 1989, considered myself a devotee somewhere during my stay in the ashram, and left with only questions. For some months I fluctuated between still believing in SB and not believing him; from believing him to be God-incarnated he tumbled down to being its opposite, the anti-Christ. I have no clue as to how it happened that on the petition it is said that I was a devotee in 2000. That simply is not true. The fact that the year 1989 is mentioned in the Dutch article by Piet van der Eijk in HP/De Tijd, as the year of me being a devotee, was a mistake made by that journalist.

It’s also raised why it took 11 years before I mentioned SB’s genital switch. It didn’t take 11 years. Van der Eijk relates what he heard from Keith (he contacted Keith after he had talked with me, he had received Keith’s telephone number from me):

Keith, (26), vertelt dat Sai Baba hem zei, toen hij was uitverkoren voor een persoonlijke ontmoeting, dat hij teveel aan de meisjes dacht. Maar op een volgende gelegenheid ging Baba verder. “Onverhoeds trok hij mijn broek naar beneden en probeerde hij mij seksueel op te winden. Hij nam mijn hand en legde het op zijn geslachtsorgaan. Toen merkte ik dat Sai Baba tweeslachtig was: niet dat hij half-vrouw half-man was, geen hermafrodiet, nee, van het ene ogenblik op het andere veranderde hij van man in vrouw, compleet met de geslachtsorganen die daarbij horen. Vraag me niet hoe dat kan, maar ik heb het zo ervaren. Het moet ook een soort wonder zijn. Kennelijk leeft Sai Baba toch op een ander niveau dan gewone stervelingen.” Dit is wat Keith Ord ons vertelt en wij geven het maar door.

Since there were several items in Van der Eijk’s article that could be looked into in more detail, I prepared a manuscript about my experiences. That never got published, but eventually led to my article De Sai-paradox. It encapsulates basically the same material as the English article SB Shiva-Shakti...

In 1990, when I had heard from Keith sexual encounter with Sai Baba, and when we began to question things, plenty of stories surfaced. At least two of them involved what I dotted down in my notebook with one word ‘murders’. Clearly, those were not the 1993 murders for those hadn’t happened yet. I did not write all down in my diary. I did write some down in letters, and mailed them to friends.

Concerning your other remarks on my writings: you are entitled to express your view. No further comments are given.

Regards,

Alexandra

RESPONSE TO ALEXANDRA NAGEL

From: Visvarupa (November 7th 2004)
Subject: Re: ExBaba.com: Deception
To: Alexandra Nagel

Thank you for your email Alexandra. Can you tell me which type of browser you are using? I will see if I can resolve the issue about you not being able to access my site. WebTV users are not able to access my site.

I have a few questions: Why did you sign the petition at SaiPetition.net saying you followed SSB “only briefy in 2000”? Did YOU sign the petition or did someone else sign the petition for you?

Are you saying that you got the story of SSB manifesting a penis then a vagina from Keith Ord?

Regarding SSB “participating in Murders”, can you please tell me about which murders you were referring to? Since you were not referring to the murders of 1993, which murders are you referring to? And you did not just use one word “murders”, you said, and I quote, “I forgive him his sexual excesses, the participation in murders?” Can you clarify this statement?

Once you clarify these statements, I will most certainly correct my article and make the needed clarifications.

Thank you, Alexandra.

Sincerely,

Joe

RESPONSE FROM ALEXANDRA NAGEL

From: Alexandra Nagel (November 7th 2004)
Subject: Re: ExBaba.com: Deception
To: Visvarupa

Usually I google to get to a website.

As far as I remember, I did not sign the petition having been a SB-follower in 2000, I must have typed 1990. I don’t know how it got to show 2000.

The word ‘murders’ is on a page in my notebook that I did not copied into the website posting. I’ve been looking things up in my original writings before replying to you. You’re right, in what is on the website, it’s that sentence, but which in reality does not say anything more than showing that I had heard stories in which SB was accused of having been involved in murders.

The male-female stories that I know of, can be found in my Shiva-Shakti paper posted on www.exbaba.com. The first story mention is what I came to know from Keith.

Regards, Alexandra

RESPONSE TO ALEXANDRA NAGEL

From: Visvarupa (November 7th 2004
Subject: Re: ExBaba.com: Deception
To: Alexandra Nagel

Can you tell me which “murder” stories you heard about SSB, at that time (1990)? Even if they were rumors, I would like to hear them. This is important because I have never heard of any murder rumors that alleged SSB “participated” in them.

After you answer this question, I will update the article and send you a copy. Thanks.

Joe

RESPONSE FROM ALEXANDRA NAGEL

From: Alexandra Nagel (November 7th 2004)
Subject: Re: ExBaba.com: Deception
To: Visvarupa

It concerned murders before 1990 and I can’t tell you anymore what they involved, since it’s so long ago and I don’t have reference to them in my own written material. Sorry for that. Fact remains that I did hear such stories.

Alexandra

NOVEMBER 2004 - RESPONSE FROM ALEXANDRA NAGEL

From: Alexandra Nagel (November 28th 2004)
Subject: Re: One more quesiton
To: Visvarupa

Joe, commenting to the above, to me your reasoning is odd.

I do have proof about stories concerning SB & murders through my diary notes of 1990 in which I referred to such stories. On the first occassion I referred to them just with one word, “murders”; on the second occassion I dotted down “participating in murders”. The page carrying the first reference is not included in the translated text published on the internet. (You probably will question me why I didn’t put the full version of my diary notes on the internet. If so, how far will you go, Joe? What do you want? Do you want me to post a boring diary on the internet that needs lots additional explanations, whereas my intention was to show what my mind went through when I became an SB ex-devotee.)

You ask me now in 2004, 14 years later, that I need to recall the precise details of these stories to cast away suspicion of the reality of these stories. Because it’s said ‘participating in’ my reference resembles the 1993 stories. Therefore you question the validity of my reference. Is that a real point? Such coincidences can happen. The fact is that I did write in 1990 “murders” and “participating in murders”. How then could I have been referring to the 1993 murders? The stories I heard concerned different stories. Would you like me anno 2004 to make things up?

You question my notes also for I hadn’t written the full stories down. You yourself would have investigated such stories had you heard them yourself. Yes okay, but you are you, and I was me at that time. The way in which I wrote, or did not write about the situation, doesn’t prove that I made up the fact that I heard stories in which it was said that SB had participated in murders. Period.

Furthermore, as I explained to you, the belief(s) I was struggling with at the time concerned whether SB might be the anti-Christ. We, Keith and I and others, heard lots of different, strange and scary stories. The murder stories were part of a larger range of stories. How could we investigate all we heard? We tried to find out as much as we could and that wasn’t very much. We were able to get a copy of Tal Brooke’s Avatar of Night, which confirmed to us that the sexual (genital switch) stories had been around a long time before as well.

What I also explained to you is that I wrote letters to friends to share with them what strange and unusual things I came to hear. I cannot look up anymore what I wrote in these letters for I don’t have them myself anymore. Since so much was happening, I did not write all that I wrote in letters also in my diary. Another point is that you consider it mundane that I did mention Keith’s leaving and coming back. Apparently you still have no understanding that such matters were intrinsically connected to my fear that SB may be the anti-Christ. And thus that such a sentence was a way of expressing that I feared that something awfull may have happened to Keith. You may have dealt with the situation way different than I have done, but that is no argument to question my way of reasoning at the time.

Regards, Alexandra

NOVEMBER 2004 - RESPONSE TO ALEXANDRA NAGEL

From: Visvarupa (November 28th 2004)
Subject: Re: One more quesiton
To: Alexandra Nagel

Hello Alexandra. Thank you for your email.

Actually, my reasoning is perfectly justified. Let me give you an example. Let us say that I accused you of lying. I say to you, “Alexandra, you LIED!”. Naturally, you are going to ask me what you lied about. If my response is, “I made a note in my diary that you lied. Even though I don’t remember what you lied about, I KNOW you LIED!” How absurd is this argument? It is totally absurd. Although it may be true that you did lie...it may also be true that you didn’t. With no specifics, nothing can be said with any certainty.

Similarly, when you say you heard murder stories, in which SSB “participated in” (which sounds exactly like the accusations made in the 1993 murders), saying that what you wrote is true, when you can’t remember what it was about, is absurd. The fact remains that until you remember what those murders were, that happened before 1990 in which SSB “participated in”, people are going to suspect that your diary notes were written much after the fact and that you made additions to your diary notes. That is just the inescapable reality.

Alexandra, I am not sure what you mean when you said, “On the first occassion I referred to them just with one word, ‘murders’; on the second occassion I dotted down ‘participating in murders’.” On your page, you only make one mention of the murders, and in that one passage, you say, “the participation in murders”. That is the only time you make reference to the murders on your page at ExBaba.com. You make a second mention of this again, saying, “The fact is that I did write in 1990 ‘murders’ and ‘participating in murders’.” Once again, you made only ONE mention to the murders, i.e. “the participation in murders”.

Alexandra, let’s get things straight. In the diary notes you published, your intention was to show why you became an Ex-Devotee of SSB. You talk about Keith Ord’s genital oiling and being embraced by SSB. You talk about “murders” that you can’t recall the details of. You make no mention about the penis turned vagina story. Apparently, you are writing about simple things like being afraid because Keith Ord hadn’t returned in a couple of hours. You talk about having to sleep behind, and beside, a staircase in Malaysia. You talk about bartering with an Indian man with your tax-free liquor. YET, you make NO mention of the important things! NO mention about the fantastic and unforgettable story of SSB turning his penis into a vagina. NO mention about the details of the murders (that must have frightened you). Why don’t you talk to Keith Ord about the murders that SSB “participated in” before 1990 and see if he remembers? Are you both suffering from amnesia?

These are the hard questions that you must answer before anyone can believe anything you have to say. Just as you pose difficult questions about SSB, the same is now being done with you. No offence, but you diary notes are boring. They provide zero insight into things that matter. The only thing you talk about, that deals with why you became an Ex-Devotee, are the references to SSB’s embracing and giving genital oilings to men. That is the focal point, as far as I can see it. You talk about “how nice this Joney of Joney’s place is where I drink coffee, sodas & lassies”, you talk about your depression, feeling lonely and crying. You talk about the black market, etc., etc., etc. But when it comes to the serious accusations of murder, you can’t remember! You say that your “fear” prompted you to write down things as mundane as when Keith Ord left and returned. However, your “fear” did NOT prompt you write down WHY you felt fear, and the story behind that “fear”; even though you make mention to the murder stories that allegedly made you “fear”!

I’m sorry Alexandra, but the more you try to clarify, the more contradictory you are sounding. You seem to be implying that these “scary stories” and SSB’s “participating in murders” made you fearful. Despite these stories having such a tremendous affect on you, you can’t remember what they were, nor did you care write them down!

And to answer you question, if I heard such stories, you can be 100% certain I would have investigated them. As a matter of fact, when I was in India, two such stories were told to me that I did investigate. Turns out that they both originated from a drunk man who also spread a story about an earthquake going to hit Puttaparthi, that awoke everyone in the middle of the night! The entire village was up, at midnight, standing outside their houses, because they said that there was a news report that said an earthquake was going to hit Puttaparthi. A quick check with the ashram revealed that no such information was known.

And when you said, “You yourself would have investigated such stories had you heard them yourself. Yes okay, but you are you, and I was me at that time.” This shows that you did NOT care to investigate these stories. Thank you for admitting that.

You said that you were devoted to SSB, at that time, in 1990. It makes me wonder why you accepted these stories without even trying to verify them. The fact that you obviously did not care to write them down, shows that either you didn’t care to research them or the allegations lacked specificity. Despite either of these scenarios, you accepted unsubstantiated stories as the truth! Does not look good either way, I’m afraid.

And thank you for telling me that you and Keith Ord read Tal Brooke’s “Avatar of the Night” at that time. This might shed a light on where this “penis turned vagina” story came from. Especially considering Keith Ord’s changing story about it.

Thank you for writing Alexandra. I will update my email correspondence page. Unfortunately, I have not read anything new to update my article with.

Take care.

Sincerely,

Joe

ALEXANDRA NAGEL - RELEVANT LINKS

• Alexandra Nagel - Information And Facts
• Alexandra Nagel - First Email Page