DAVE LYONS

From: Dave Lyons (October 31th 2004)
Subject: Re: ExBaba.com: Deception
To: Visvarupa

Dear Joe:

As an American general responded to the German demand to surrender at Bastogne in December, 1944: “nuts!” So, what kind of nut are you? I applaud your sincere but misguided effort to defend your guru. After all, Hitler and Stalin still have their apologists. I am not saying that SSB is in the vicious class as these two monsters, but he is definitely a fraud. And after all, I was one he had snookered until I found out about his sexual molestings--and yes, the executions of four in 1993 via his own brother and the police who executed them. He is the true murderer, no less than a mafia crime boss who puts out a contract on his enemies. You need to rethink your position, Joe. Must you go on blindly? Have you talked to “Sam Young?” Have you talked to any of the ones who were sexually molested by him? I think not, but please correct me if you have.

Happy Halloween,

Dave Lyons

RESPONSE TO DAVE LYONS

From: Vishvarupa (October 31st 2004)
Subject: Re: ExBaba.com: Deception
To: Dave Lyons

Dave, thank you for your email. I happen to be working on the “Letters” section on ExBaba.com. Funny you should mention McAuliffe and ask me “what kind of nut are you”. After reading your lamentable letters, I was going to ask you the same question!

Dave, you said you found out about the “executions of four in 1993 via his own brother and the police who executed them”. Since you are stating this as a fact, please supply me with the official documentation or testimonies to back up your claim. Neither you, nor anyone else, who has made this claim, can back it up with a shred of evidence. Why are you repeating untruths that have no evidence to back them up? If you repeat this untruth, many will see you as a person who speaks untruths. If this does not bother you, that is your choice. Unfortunately, it bothers me. So, where is your evidence to back up your claim?

If you had cared to even read my article, about the very claim you made, on my Robert Priddy page: http://www.saisathyasai.com/baba/Ex-Baba.com/Murders/murders-robert-priddy.html you would have seen that this claim comes from a newspaper clipping made by an anonymous bank official. Do you believe the police were telling the truth? Let me know, because the claim you just made (that came from the anonymous bank official) actually supports the police’s version of events. It’s obvious you have not researched the murders at all. When you are better informed, please write me back.

Regarding Sam Young. No, I have not spoken to him. However, those who have spoken to him, have recorded his words...direct from his own mouth...on video. Sad to say, his words contradict each other. How do you explain the contradictions? To refresh your mind, the contradictions are:

In Sam Young’s testimony, from Seduced, Sam Young claims that his first personal experience with SSB occurred, when he was 16 years old, when he went to see SSB, alone with some friends in a USA group. His family did not accompany him during this trip. According to Sam Young’s testimony, on Seduced, SSB materialized oil and rubbed it on his testicles and kissed him deeply and it seemed as if SSB was trying to make his penis erect. This testimony directly contradicts the testimony that Sam Young gave in Secret Swami, in which Sam Young said that the fist time he had a personal experience with SSB was when his family was with him in 1997. According to Sam Young, on Secret Swami, his family was called for an interview and he was called privately. It was then that SSB materialized oil and rubbed it on his testicles and kissed him deeply. After the interview, his father, Al, asked Sam what happened in the private interview. Sam said he could not tell. Al asked Sam if SSB made oil for him. Sam asked his father how he knew about the oil and Al said that that it had happened to him too. Al did not consider his oiling experience to be anything sexual. In fact, Al believe it was some sort of healing ritual.

Despite these two accounts, of the oiling, directly contradicting each other, they also contradict the testimony that was published in Divine Downfall in which it was said, “In 1995, Sam had come to his father. In a private interview, he said, Sai Baba had ’materialised’ some oil in his hand, unbuttoned Sam’s trousers and rubbed his genitals. Jeff (This is Al, they are changing their names for some reason. For example Sam Young is Alaya Rahm) told his son he had had a similar experience when he first met Sai Baba at 18. ’I said to Sam, what did you think about it? He said he didn’t feel there was anything sexual about it; it was like Sai Baba was doing his job. And I’d kind of had that experience. A doctor gives a boy an exam. I’d taken it as some kind of healing.’ Thereafter, Sam said nothing about his experiences” In this account, Sam Young said that he didnt feel there was anything sexual about it (noticed he specifically addressed his doubts concerning the possible, sexual perception). Nevertheless, Sam Young said this despite SSB kissing him deeply and seemingly trying to make his penis erect, which are clearly sexual. The other contradiction, given in this same account by Divine Downfall, is when Sam Young supposedly went to his father and told him about the oiling. However, in Secret Swami, this is not what happened! In Secret Swami, the family had a group interview and Sam Young was called separately and that is when the oiling occurred and it was Al who questioned Sam about the oiling. Not Sam approaching his father and telling him what happened. Also the dates for this oiling story are different. In Divine Downfall, Sam Young discussed the oiling with his father in 1995. In Secret Swami, Sam Young discussed the oiling with his father in 1997.

Also, in Sam Young’s testimony on Divine Downfall, we have a revelation that Sam Young had received about $10,000 in cash from SSB. On Secret Swami, Al Rahm said, “I think he gave him several thousands dollars”. Al Rahm “thinks” SSB gave Sam “several thousand dollars”? Why didn’t he ask him? Where did this figure of $10,000 come from? There is no mention of Sam receiving any amount of money on Seduced.

Another contradiction occurs between Sam Young’s testimony in Divine Downfall and Seduced. In Sam Young’s testimony, on Seduced, Sam Young claims that he had conversations with other people who had similar experiences. Sam said he could talk more openly with them than he could with his dad. However, in Divine Downfall, the “other people” are American, teenage students at the Puttparthi College. In Divine Downfall, Sam Young said that “we didn’t talk about it too much because of the idea that he (SSB) was omniscient, that he’d know what we were talking about and what was in our heads”. In Seduced, Sam Young talks to other people (notice he does not specify the important information that they were American, Sai Students) and he talks to them openly. Yet in the second account, on Divine Downfall, they “didn’t talk about it too much”. So, did Sam talk “openly” about it or “not too much”?

The last contradiction is regarding the accounts given in Divine Downfall and Secret Swami about how Sam Young divulged everything that was happening to his parents. In Divine Downfall, it states, “ When Sai Baba attempted to get him to perform oral sex, Sam walked out for the last time, although it would be some months before he summoned the nerve to tell his parents”. However, in Secret Swami, Sam did not tell his parents. His parents confronted him and that was when he divulged the story. In Secret Swami, it says, “Al Rahm: We were concerned about Alaya’s behaviour and the way he was acting and so we decided we were going to confront him. Well, to my surprise when Alaya said ok and he started to tell the story, it was so much more than I knew anything about”.

RESPONSE FROM DAVE LYONS

From: Dave Lyons (November 1st 2004)
Subject: Re: ExBaba.com: Deception
To: Visvarupa

Why, Joe, you sound amazingly like Bon Giovanni, that human firewall, spin doctor par excellence, “defender of the faith”, and several other imposed titles. At least Bon did talk to Al Rahm, and in a moment of shock and dismay was very sympathetic. But this reaction only lasted until the phone conversation was ended. Then he returned to his spin mode. Well, Joe, are you Bon? And if not, why have you not spoken to Alaya or Al or any other molestation victim? Have you spoken to Conny Larsson. Afraid of what you will hear? Have you questioned, objectively, the accusers in THE FINDINGS? Hmmmm? Until you do so, we cannot compare notes.

Bon once said I was hiding behind my screen name, and wrote disparagingly about my occupation, and was derisive in his holier-than-thou snobbishness and arrogance. If you are not Bon, you must certainly be his clone and his parrot. When you have spoken to several of the sexual abuse victims, verified, and you can successfully refute all the testimony of THE FNDINGS, and you can show conclusively that all the testimony since early 2000 is all a vast anti-guru conspiracy against SSB, then, and only then, can we have a serious dialogue. Until then, you must be considered a Bon Giovanni, Jr. I hope you will do the investigations. Until you do, your defense mechanisms and spins do not wash.

How come you don’t level with us and sign your real name? Who or what are YOU hiding behind, Joe? Joe who?

Dave Lyons

RESPONSE TO DAVE LYONS

From: Vishvarupa (November 1st 2004)
Subject: Re: ExBaba.com: Deception
To: Dave Lyons

Dave, you apparently have not even read my web pages. If you had, you would have seen that I give my name at the bottom of the page. My name is Gerald “Joe” Moreno. And despite your speculation, I am not “Bon”. So once again, it is apparent that you are blinding lashing out without even having read any of the information I provided on my site. Sad.

Since you have not answered any of my questions, I assume you have no answers. I did talk to Conny Larsson, but he has refused to answer my questions. If you read my site, you would have seen the email he sent me. Unfortunately, I have no way of talking to Sam Young. If you have a way for me contact him, please send it to me. Otherwise, your defence of “well you didn’t speak to him” is only a facade. And, as I rightly pointed out before, I do not need to speak to Sam Young. He has been interviewed by three people. Twice on film. The words he spoke came directly from his mouth, on video. There are no “fudging” the facts with his actual testimony. The fact remains that he told three differing stories. Apparently, a fact that you cannot address. That you do not seem to care about this in the least, shows you do not care to investigate the truth. Apparently you are saying that you have spoken to Sam Young? Well if you have, have him clarify his position and send it to me.

Dave, funny that those on ExBaba.com castigate and reprimand those who resort to ad hominem attacks. You made certain claims, and stated them as facts, however, you are unwilling to back them up with any evidence. This is decitful and hypocritical. Calling me “Bon Jr.”, a “Parrot” and a “Clone” shows that you are reactionary and resort to petty name calling instead of being truthful and honest and backing up your claims with facts. You are also doing exactly what I state on my index page: That when ExBaba.com is presented with factual discrepancies, they resort to character assassination and name calling instead of explaining or correcting the factual inconsistencies. You demand honesty from the Sai Organization, yet when the same honesty is demanded of you, you behave in the same reprehensible way you accuse the Sai Organization of! This, in laymans terms, is called “hypocrisy”.

Answer my questions. You said, “and yes, the executions of four in 1993 via his own brother and the police who executed them”. Show me the evidence to back this up. I also asked you to explain the three contradictory testimonies from Sam Young. You have failed to do so? Why? If Sam Young is telling the truth, it should be a fairly easy thing to explain. And since it appears you are claiming you have spoken to Sam Young, why don’t you call him and have him explain the three differing stories? I am more than willing to correct what I have written, once you provide me with this information.

Oh, and by the way, I did write a section on The Findings. Another fact, you have obviously overlooked.

Sincerely,

Joe

RESPONSE FROM DAVE LYONS

From: Dave Lyon (November 1st 2004)
Subject: Re: ExBaba.com: Deception
To: Visvarupa

OK, Gerald “Joe” Moreno. I stand corrected on you being Bon. And no, I did not access your blurb. Shah and Goldstein’s responses were enough for me. Yes, I demand honesty and integrity from the top and middle leadership, who have covered up for SSB since the 1970s.

The leadership of the Sai Org.--not the rank and file members, with whom I am still friends . Are you a leader? And of what? What is your role or title in the Org.? A former president was expelled from the Sai Org. in Moscow by a top leader when he started asking questions about the accusations. You should be aware of this. Why was he expelled? You need not bother to spin this. He has told the Sai Org. and all the former devotees why he was expelled, and that is absolutely shameful. Goldstein is shameless. His response to Al Rahm was more than shameful; he accused Alaya of being deluded. That’s a fine way to deny the truth. He never did investigate further. Why not? Because he knew the truth from long time back, via Hislop, Bozzani et al. Is Conny Larsson deluded too? Are all the sexual molestation victims deluded? Maybe you believe the BBC is also deluded--and all the other media who have had the courage to expose this sham, this fraud, this deceit, this trickery and this snookery. And of course, you must believe I am deluded also.

One more thing Gerald “Joe” Moreno: the 1993 executions will one day be exposed. There is just too much corruption and money involved, as well as the exposure of too many high-ranking governmental officials, past and present, for this to come to trial at this time. But if you want adequate evidence, see B. Premanand’s book MURDERS IN SAI BABA’S BEDROOM. It looks like you get your jollys via debate, verbal and scriptural. Tell it to God.

Ciao,

Dave

RESPONSE TO DAVE LYONS

From: Vishvarupa (November 1st 2004)
Subject: Re: ExBaba.com: Deception
To: Dave Lyons

Dave, thank you for your email. And thank you for telling me, that despite all of your wild and frenzied speculations and accusations against me, you did not even care to read my site! That speaks volumes, in and of itself. This directly puts in doubt, the “research” you did into your “facts”. And I suggest you read my site before you post me any more emails. I have spoken to Seguei Badaev at great length (the ex-president of Moscow). If you would have read my site, you would have been aware of this basic fact. Serguei Badaev is perhaps the most honest person I have spoke to. He even had ExBaba.com remove a page, he authored, in which I pointed out serious discrepancies! You are free to ask him for yourself. And even Serguei Badaev told me that the numbers of people, who are said to have been sexually abused by SSB, are exaggerated. Ask him yourself.

I have never accused anyone of being “deluded”. Nor have I said that they are lying. I am simply pointing out the obvious: There are differing stories and there needs to be an honest accounting for the discrepancies. It is pointless for me to defend my positions, in emails with you, when I have already done so on my site. Until you can offer me any evidence, documentation or facts to back up the claims you make, our correspondence is going to go nowhere.

And I have shown how Basava Premanand’s book, “Six Murders In Sai Baba’s Bedroom”, is false and inaccurate. Did you know that Basava Premanand has NO education? That’s why no one lists his credentials. His credentials are that he is an amateur magician and a rationalist. Furthermore, I have shown how he discards material witnesses, for newspapers clippings, in his book! Hundreds of pages, in his book, are newspaper clipping! No kidding! Just look at Robert Priddy’s site and the evidence Basava Premanand provides. Obviously, you have not even studied Basava Premanand’s claims, despite citing his book as evidence! Sad. He also charges foreigners 300% more for his book than non-foreigners. So your “evidence” keeps falling flat on its face. Yes, Dave, you can still cling to your “second coming” mentality regarding the “truth” that will come out regarding the murders. 11 years have passed and no one has come forward to support the erroneous specualtions made by Robert Priddy or Basava Premanand.

I have talked at length about Conny Larsson and I have said, if you only read my site, that I believe he is telling the truth. I have also said I believe that Sam Young is telling the truth. Anyone who says they were sexually abused, in my mind, must have the benefit of the doubt. However, despite believing them, I have valid doubts because of the other testimonies they made that directly contradicts what they said. The example of Jed Geyerhahn is a perfect example. He completely contradicts himself in his two testimonies. Completely! Yet not one cares! Don’t you care? What IF he IS lying? It is obvious you could care less if he is lying. This type of “care less” mentality is undermining the cause of those who truly seek justice. My search for the truth has shown me that Anti-SSB activists, like yourself, “care less” about factual integrity and “care more” about vindicitiveness and deceit at any cost.

The truth is that there are people who have hated SSB before the sexual accusations were made public. These very people are more than willing to lie to achieve their vindictive ends. Everyone must make an honest effort to get reliable and genuinie testimonies from those who feel they have been legitimately abused. If you do not ask the questions about the contradictions, someone else will. And that “someone else” is me. Unfortunately, there is no stopping the questions of conflicting testimonies. It will have to be inevitably discussed. And although it appears you are trying to drag this out as long as you can, I am still holding you accountable to the facts. Why does Sam Youngs testimonies contradict each other?

And, as I have mentioned in my original email, all email you send to me, may be used on my site, as I see fit. I also said that I did not want to engage in email wars. Since you have willingly emailed me, knowing this, a section with our email correspondence will be added to my site in the next two weeks. It is important for people to see this conversation.

So Dave Lyons, despite you allegations of “fraud, this deceit, this trickery and this snookery” that you allege against SSB and his Organization, it certainly does seem that ExBaba.com is engaging in the very same behavior, namely “fraud, this deceit, this trickery and this snookery”, that you find so reprehensible!

Your emails have shown that you are sheep, being led by the cult of ExBaba.com. You are being fed lies, contradictions and assumptions and you are thinking it is the truth! I wish you well, Dave. And if you do come across any factual material that would refute my positions, on my site, please let me know. I will correct it immediately. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Joe

RESPONSE FROM DAVE LYONS

From: Dave Lyon (November 1st 2004)
Subject: Re: ExBaba.com
To: Visvarupa

Here are just a few of your inaccuracies, Joe. Why should I believe that your site could be more factual? These few show me you that what you accuse of me is really you.

“And thank you for telling me, that despite all of your wild and frenzied speculations and accusations against me, you did not even care to read my site!”

I did not mean to hurt your feelings, Joe. However, methinks you DO protest too much about “frenzied speculations and accusations against me...” Do you really think that ANYTHING that may be on your site is different or more “factual” than what other apologists have said, including SSB?

“I have never accused anyone of being “deluded”. Nor have I said that they are lying.”

I was talking about Goldstein and other leaders of the Sai Org., Joe, not you.

“And I have shown how Basava Premanand’s book, “Six Murders In Sai Baba’s Bedroom”, is false and inaccurate. Did you know that Basava Premanand has NO education? That’s why no one lists his credentials.

Wrong title of the book, Joe. What are your credentials? I asked you what position you hold in the Sai Org. but you have not answered. What is your educational training? Your guru quit elementary school, so what relevance does formal education have with Premanand’s publication(s)?

“I have talked at length about Conny Larsson and I have said, if you only read my site, that I believe he is telling the truth. I have also said I believe that Sam Young is telling the truth. Anyone who says they were sexually abused, in my mind, must have the benefit of the doubt.

You have talked at length ABOUT Conny Larsson? Have you talked TO Conny Larsson?

If you believe that Conny and Sam are telling the truth why do you cite Jed Geyerhahn, calling it a perfect example of “contradictions?” Why do you not follow up with other sexual abuse victims?

“My search for the truth has shown me that Anti-SSB activists, like yourself, “care less” about factual integrity and “care more” about vindicitiveness and deceit at any cost.”

You are parroting SSB’s vituperations against former devotees in his Christmas, 2000 discourse. You are accusing me of what is in you.

Have a nice day, Joe.

Dave

RESPONSE TO DAVE LYONS

From: Vishvarupa (November 1st 2004)
Subject: Re: ExBaba.com
To: Dave Lyons

Dave, your emails are getting more and more pathetic with each response. *sigh* I emailed Conny Larsson and he emailed me back saying, “What more than puke can I do over your people like you”. So I spoke about Conny Larsson and I spoke to Conny Larsson. He has refused to answer my other emails.

You did not hurt my feelings. I am simply pointing out that you are resorting to calling names rather than answering my questions. This is validated by the fact that you are continuing to write me without answering my questions.

You ask if there is anything on my site that is more factual than what others have said. Well, you will never know because you have not read it. You simply can’t make a case against my site, when you have not read it. Now can you? The fact that you are trying to do so, is amusing and lamentable.

Your perspicuity is as about as sharp as a butter knife. I said, “I have never accused anyone of being ‘deluded’. Nor have I said that they are lying.” In response to this, you said, “I was talking about Goldstein and other leaders of the Sai Org., Joe, not you.” Dave, I never said that you were talking about me! Furthermore, you were not talking about Goldstein and other leaders, you were talking about the sexual abuse victims. You said, in your previous email, “Is Conny Larsson deluded too? Are all the sexual molestation victims deluded?” You never said anything about Goldstein being deluded. You said that Goldstein accused Sam Young of being deluded. Care to substantiate this claim? I never read anything about Goldstein calling Sam Young “deluded”. Where did Goldstein say this? That you cannot even keep up with your emails is mystifying!

And I am not going to answer personal questions. This is not about “me”. This is about the contradictory testimonies, lies and deception used by ExBaba.com. The fact that you are trying to get personal information points, once again, to the fact that your only interest is in character assassination. Clearly, you can’t refute the facts I cited. You admit you have not even read my site. So you want to criticize me instead. I am not going to play your game. It’s that simple.

If you want me to follow up with other sexual abuse victims, give me their emails or contact info. Obviously, since you can follow up on them, providing me with contact information should not be difficult for you.

Regarding you last point, you accuse Goldstein (in this email) of being “deluded”. This must mean, of course, that these “vituperations” that you are accusing him of, are in you as well.

Have a good day.

Joe

RESPONSE FROM DAVE LYONS

From: Dave Lyon (November 1st 2004)
Subject: Re: ExBaba.com
To: Visvarupa

Have a nice life, Joe.
Dave

DAVE / DAVID LYONS - IN CONCLUSION

In Conclusion, Dave Lyons (a supporter of the ExBaba website) made personal attacks against me and my website although he admitted he never read my website and would not do so! David Lyons is a perfect example of the type of bitter critic who blindly believes whatever he is told about Sai Baba that is negative. When Anti-Sai Activists are challenged with valid and pertinent questions, character assassination is preferred method of response. Dave Lyons refused to send me contact information for alleged victims but then faulted me for not contacting them. Couple this with Mr. Lyons’ belief that Sai Baba is comparable to Hitler, Stalin and the Mafia and his extremism is apparent. This type of hateful, cult-like behavior is prevalent among ex-devotees. This furthers my original contention: “...suggesting that anger, rather than genuine grievances, are driving this Anti-Sai Campaign“.